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April Golston's avatar

“as Kierkegaard murmured” or “as Schopenhauer once passive-aggressively shrieked” made me belly laugh and, once again, you've managed to teach me something *and* make me laugh. You have a rare gift.

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

:-) x

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Stuart Langridge's avatar

Wait wait wait. When Jack Nicholson’s Joker said “I have given a name to my pain… and it is Batman” it was a _Nietzsche_ quotation?? OK, wasn’t expecting that. Maybe everybody else always knew this!

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

Wow... maybe. I guess stranger things have happened... :-)

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davidestevens's avatar

You do know of Churchill’s “black dog”, don’t you?

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

Ah, it was him. I remembered the black dog... but not who it was. And didn't think he used it therapeutically. But I'll look it up now you've reminded me - thank you!

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davidestevens's avatar

No, not therapeutically, as far as I know. But he did start an EDM band (no, now I’m getting confused. Get your paws off me, dog!!)

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Allan Lear's avatar

Churchill's therapy was occupational. Whenever he was depressed he used to do a bit of bricklaying

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

Probably an extremely effective plan!

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Allan Lear's avatar

Yeah - both the action of building it and, at the end, having tangibly achieved something are probably balm to the soul.

Of course, occupational therapy was pioneered as part of the raft of experimental treatments devised at Craiglockheart Hospital after WWI as treatment for shell shock, so it *is* possible that Churchill was aware that that was what he was doing

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

He was a smart guy. I suspect he might have been...

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

LOL

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Paulina Gently's avatar

Ah, so that's who my friend borrowed the expression -- Churchill. Thank you.

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David Perlmutter's avatar

"Nietzsche knew all too well the struggles of the psyche, facing mental health challenges for much of his life, famously culminating in a complete breakdown after — the story goes — traumatically witnessing a cab driver brutally mistreating his horse in Turin in 1899."

You can tell that in his writings- he seems to be shouting at the reader on the page, in a desperate attempt to keep their attention...

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

Yes, true.

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ꫀꪗᧁꪶó's avatar

Is it bad that I now have a deeper respect for Nietzsche knowing the culmination of his breakdown came after seeing an animal mistreated?

Having a dog I am somewhat on the fence with this as my dog is one of the things that daily keeps my spirit higher than it otherwise would be — though maybe that’s part of the point? Treat your mood like you need to go out and throw a stick for it for half an hour and you’ll look silly but feel better!

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

I think it's exactly that, and it's why the metaphor is so clever. No point hating that part of yourself, you have to learn to work with it, benefit from it and who knows, once in a while even enjoy it _ in terms of respecting/valuing the insights it brings.

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ꫀꪗᧁꪶó's avatar

Actually that makes a lot of sense. This moody little elf (or dog) inside is also good at coaxing you to do things you wouldn’t if it was always sunshine and rainbows

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

Exactly! And that's why a dog works better than a cat, too — because you can't tell a cat to either go for a walk or go over there and sleep... they'll just do what they hell they want ;-)

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Karen Brenchley's avatar

I think Radar O’Reilly on MASH spent an episode where, during conversations, he would gesture and say something like, “Ah, <some intellectual’s name>” in an effort to sound wise.

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

Strong tactic ;-)

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Karen Brenchley's avatar

It was “Ah, Bach.”

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Allan Lear's avatar

It's odd that the whole "Nazi" thing has stuck so aggressively to Nietzsche when a passing familiarity with his work would show that he would have regarded National Socialism as just another slave morality. Dude wasn't a natural joiner.

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

Exactly! People do tend to just believe what they're told... which I guess was part of his point!

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Rolf Marvin Bøe Lindgren's avatar

This resonates at a lot of levels.

The therapeutic model I use is called ACT, which is partially based on a re-interpretation of BF Skinner's ”Verbal Behavior“ (Which was later demolished by Noam Chomsky, who hadn't read it). The most recent critique of Skinner is in Chomsky's spiritual descendant Stephen Pinker's «The Blank Slate» (Everything he writes about Skinner in that book is misquoted, misattributed, misunderstood, wrong).

There's not much to be done about that, but the quote from Nietzsche is interesting because it resonates with the ACT model - what's called cognitive fusion.Tthe techique or process you describe here is called cognitive defusion.

There's a lot of research on this. The most common model in trauma therapy - the one actually used - is to learn the client ways to distract oneself from intrusive thoughts and emotions (As a radical behaviorist, I believe in emotions, as in BF Skinners analysis from 1945). Which can be compared to peeing in your pants to stay warm.

The most efficient way to deal with difficult emotions is exposure - in various ways and form. The quote from Nietzsche, in an ACT context, is one method of exposure. Emotions are in general most troublesome when they're unfamiliar. Taking a step back, viewing them from outside, giving them a name are tried and tested techniques.

And fairly recent. They're counterintuitive and hard to learn.

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

That's incredibly interesting, thank you! Sounds like it's definitely worth giving a try, then. Thank you, really nice to have this put in a context from someone who knows the field.

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Carlotta Dale's avatar

Sometimes the dog is just a bête noire, but regardless, I'm taking him out for a walk this afternoon.

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

I hope you had a productive walk and have come back on good terms ;-)

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Paulina Gently's avatar

Sometimes I call my depression The Black Dog, something an old online friend would use. It's a constant, faithful companion -- those with clinical depression will certainly know what I'm talking about.

"As for "the Kierkegaard murmured", I've got to admit my Danish is far far too weak to quote him lol. (So far, I can say "I don't know in Dsnish, which I believe to be the pinnacle of my multilingualism 😉). I do have his works downloaded, though, and took a part in the course on him on Courser in It's heyday, but don't remember much.

I guess it's time to listen to The Philosoper's Song by the Month Python at this point, no matter what the mood.

Thank you, Mr Smith, for yet another great post. You _do_ keep me on my intellectual toes (I hope that's ghe right expression, it's very early morning here in Poland, and I'm still waking up).

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

It is, and thank you! Really glad the piece resonated :-)

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Paul D'Arcy's avatar

Smart essay. Thanks, Michael 😉

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Michael Marshall Smith's avatar

Thank you!

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