Great chat, though a little sad that there isn't an MMS/MM/MR/other novel on the way imminently (damn you and being off doing other paying jobs). But also more than a little excited to see that Julian is working on one!
I love this conversation and find myself completely relating to everything you said. Well, not everything, I haven't had nearly the career you've both had. But I can certainly identify with the need to create regardless of the odds of success. I've had a late-career breakthrough on that front. I used to think of my constant need to create as an affliction, but I now see it as a calling. That doesn't make the day-to-day any easier, but it dignifies the condition a little to see it as a spiritual rather than pathological.
I also love that some of your novels came from dreams. I've just launched a comic book series based on fever dreams I had when I was down with Covid. The first one just finished printing. There will be no money made on this project, but it's been extremely gratifying. And that's what separates writers from producers, agents, and all the other folks who want to change a writer's work to suit their business model: None of them would work for free, let alone pay to see their work in the world. That's how we get taken advantage of and why we put up with so much crap, because we need to do this and they're just paying their bills.
Thank you — and thank you for reading! And that's a great point. Ultimately the creators win because we can do it anyway, regardless of whether there's money in it. That itch can get scratched. And I hate to live a live with no itches in it...
Hollywood have spent the past few years throwing money at London; new studios are going up thick & fast… if the bubble doesn't finally burst before it's all finished & we have more giant warehouses to re-purpose. The past couple of years it's been the other way round. I worked on Season 1 of Silo last year, the sets for which were built in a disused warehouse just North of London because the new studios weren't coming online fast enough.
Filming on US projects is still going on in the UK, but only ones for which the writing is already done.
That aside, the film/TV business [& it seems publishing too] is going the way the music industry has over the past decade or so. The entire entertainment industry is collapsing in on itself. I have a friend in a world-famous band, who now has to spend 250+ days a year on tour to keep the money coming in.
An industry I spent a lot of time in, as did my partner. I just lost all impetus eventually, something my younger self could never have imagined. It wasn't done for the money, though I wouldn't say no, but it was done because plainly and simply, there was nothing else I'd rather do.
In the past decade I shifted over to film/TV. I initially decided I could act - who can't, thought I - and it seems that by completely fooling myself into believing that, I actually could. It turned out, however, that I really can't remember lines. Not good. So now I mainly work as an 'extra', or anything without much dialogue.
I thought it was just me that thought this. It seems not.
But keep going guys! Don't give up the …ermm… day job.
This feels like a very transitional and transformative time for ALL the arts, you're right. Tech + late capitalism has come crashing into the creative process with wholly different goals, and a different mindset. I'm not sure there's much else we can do except keep on keeping on... meanwhile keeping an eye open for ways this may benefit rather than destroy us.
Oh, yes. American Gods fell at the third hurdle, unfortunately, but I guess you had a hand in Good Omens, S02 out any minute now. [I did a brief stint on S01 but never got anywhere near S02]. I was a Pratchett & Gaiman fan from before they first hooked up to do the book.
One day, I sincerely hope someone has a proper go at Spares. I heard Spielberg/Dreamworks got their paws on it at one point, but then decided to hide it away in a back room somewhere.
I'd love to know who you personally would like for Randall. Hard to do that kind of character without hitting the cliché zone.
I was recently on a webinar with a TV producer who was talking about how the limiting factor for the British TV/film industry is a lack of crew. I live not too far from the new Shinfield Studios complex, but as he said, there's no point having these shiny new studios if there's no one crew them.
OMG Silo is absolutely the very best thing on TV this year, highly recommend it to everyone. The moody atmosphere, the ever-present danger, the excellent actors and acting... the ending was a complete cliff hanger too, I had to run it back at least twice to make sure my eyes were not deceiving me! Well done.
Thanks for such an enjoyable, informative read. Eye opening.
Nobody Knows Anything (courtesy WG):
"then you’ll realize you have no clue what you’re doing, what happens next, or why you thought it was a good idea in the first place."
"Hollywood is a place governed by fear, and when these folk are scared they tend to look for sure things."
"no one seems to know what the next thing is."
A Good Plot:
"a bunch of tech bros and bankers making drastic mistakes and misunderstanding the entertainment business is a sideshow because the fact is that people will always pay money to be told good stories."
Fascinating Info For Outsiders Looking In (like me):
"Advances are way down, to the point where it’s not a profession where you can really hope to make a living unless you’re up in the rarified realms of the super-bestsellers, or else were a celebrity beforehand, and you and the publisher are using this to increase your mutual worth."
"a bunch of tech bros and bankers making drastic mistakes and misunderstanding the entertainment business is a sideshow because the fact is that people will always pay money to be told good stories."
Oh, I know you weren't — I'd actually already thought of asking! I'm slogging my way through post-London jetlag right now... will drop you a line when my brain's back in!
As someone trying to do a career pivot (back) into writing, I can't think of a worse time to be even considering it. I had a brief stint as a music journalist back during the Britpop era, which was a lot of fun but paid next to nothing, and I rather internalised that as proof that all the people who'd told me that you couldn't earn a living as a writer were right.
Skip forward 25 years, and I'm trying to do all the creative writing now that I didn't do back then, but the prospects for earning a decent living as a writer seem even bleaker. I'm proud of the things that I've done in the intervening years, but I seem to have gravitated toward somewhat underpaid professions. Somehow, I need to find a way to support my writing habit.
All that said, there's a huge difference between now and then: In the late 90s, I was on my own. I didn't know anyone who wrote, didn't really know how to get work as a writer, didn't have any confidence in my writing, had no mentors and no role models. Now, I only have to log in to Subtack and there's the joy of two fabulous people having a fascinating conversation that speaks directly to me. And I get, perhaps, to chat with you both in the comments. It's magnificent.
And that's important. It's just so much easier to find both inspiration and support now than it ever was when I first tried to write for a living. That leaves me feeling a lot more hopeful for the future of the creative industries than the multi-format shitshow that's unfurling around us right now might otherwise indicate.
That sense of community — when you need it — can be so important. As I said in the chat, I was lucky that I was entering a genre, at a certain age (no kids, few responsibilities) and could write as much as I wanted. That's much harder now. And yes, I do have hopes that Substack might be somewhere to look for it... of course there's a lot of people who are just trying to "grow their brands" but others who are up for hanging out and entering a place of mutual encouragement...
Substack really reminds me of the very early days of blogging. I started my blog in 2001 and rapidly found a whole group of people, all way more notable than me, who were willing to chat with anyone who had something interesting to say. (That is, in fact, how I met Neil and got him to become the patron of the Open Rights Group.) The internet hasn't felt that open and welcoming for a long time, but I do get the sense that for those who want it, Substack can be that kind of place.
Great chat guys, lots of this really strikes home, too. I've been making a living at this for 18 years now, and have really diversified over the past few years, partly as opportunities arose, partly through necessity, mostly because of what Julian said ... I just love telling stories, and being able to tell them through different media is refreshing and fun. And it's got to be fun, hasn't it? Even when it's fucking soul-destroying it's fun. It is. IT IS!
Mike's comment about publishing promo struck a hard chord too, blog tours etc etc, and 90% virtual promotion (which as we all know is mostly farting into a hurricane and hoping someone gets a whiff). Er, not that I think our books are like farts. Bad analogy. I'm a writer, you know.
Also that comment about how the finished product never quite living up to what you'd expect brings to mind the great Arthur Machen quote, 'I dream in fire, but work in clay'.
Good luck with the novel, Jules! And Mike ... about time you wrote a new one. Get on it.
Hey Tim! I'd somehow never heard that Machen quote. Love it. And you're right... even when it's not fun, it's a lot more fun than we'd have any other way.
Thanks for the insights! Very valuable as an outsider. I like that both of you felt as outsiders early on. Many do in their careers and it's a superpower of sorts to not take things for granted. Keep at i and your heads up so you'll see the fork in the road when it's coming. Stories are a huge [part of who we are.
How interesting and informative. Please, no podcasts. I can’t stand people yakking all day. Write it all down and I’ll read it with peace and quiet around me. 😉
I'm the same ;-) Drives me nuts that most of the time if you want to find out how to use some piece of tech you have to watch a perky little video, rather than just speed-reading through a document in a tenth of the time...
Really enjoyed this. Tell me, once you have been published professionally, when you get to the end of a contract, is there never the tempation to go out on your own and create your own publishing company, just to release and promote your own books, then keep most of the profits?
I'm thinking particularly of the StoryGrid / Black Irish Publishing set up between Steven Pressfield and Shawn Coyne. They have an in-house marketing guy Tim, who is also one of their authors and started out freelance, and I've seen some of Michael's AI pictures, they would make great covers. Amazon GDP provides the global distribution. With digital marketing techniques nowadays, you can even split test covers and titles, and serialise books to build an audience while writing. Didn't you do that Michael with one of yours? Yes, I think you did.
Of course, if you have well-paid day jobs I can see that the appeal of this would fade, but it sounds like the day jobs are proving problematic too so it may be something to think about for later.
Great chat, though a little sad that there isn't an MMS/MM/MR/other novel on the way imminently (damn you and being off doing other paying jobs). But also more than a little excited to see that Julian is working on one!
Me too! And I am starting to speculatively type on a couple of things that might turn out to be books... wish me luck ;-)
Loved reading this. It was like eavesdropping on the two of you having a chat in the pub. You should do a podcast together.
Or... go and have a chat in a pub ;-)
I love this conversation and find myself completely relating to everything you said. Well, not everything, I haven't had nearly the career you've both had. But I can certainly identify with the need to create regardless of the odds of success. I've had a late-career breakthrough on that front. I used to think of my constant need to create as an affliction, but I now see it as a calling. That doesn't make the day-to-day any easier, but it dignifies the condition a little to see it as a spiritual rather than pathological.
I also love that some of your novels came from dreams. I've just launched a comic book series based on fever dreams I had when I was down with Covid. The first one just finished printing. There will be no money made on this project, but it's been extremely gratifying. And that's what separates writers from producers, agents, and all the other folks who want to change a writer's work to suit their business model: None of them would work for free, let alone pay to see their work in the world. That's how we get taken advantage of and why we put up with so much crap, because we need to do this and they're just paying their bills.
Anyway, great post as always, thank you!
Thank you — and thank you for reading! And that's a great point. Ultimately the creators win because we can do it anyway, regardless of whether there's money in it. That itch can get scratched. And I hate to live a live with no itches in it...
Ye goddes, but that is sooo depressing.
Hollywood have spent the past few years throwing money at London; new studios are going up thick & fast… if the bubble doesn't finally burst before it's all finished & we have more giant warehouses to re-purpose. The past couple of years it's been the other way round. I worked on Season 1 of Silo last year, the sets for which were built in a disused warehouse just North of London because the new studios weren't coming online fast enough.
Filming on US projects is still going on in the UK, but only ones for which the writing is already done.
That aside, the film/TV business [& it seems publishing too] is going the way the music industry has over the past decade or so. The entire entertainment industry is collapsing in on itself. I have a friend in a world-famous band, who now has to spend 250+ days a year on tour to keep the money coming in.
An industry I spent a lot of time in, as did my partner. I just lost all impetus eventually, something my younger self could never have imagined. It wasn't done for the money, though I wouldn't say no, but it was done because plainly and simply, there was nothing else I'd rather do.
In the past decade I shifted over to film/TV. I initially decided I could act - who can't, thought I - and it seems that by completely fooling myself into believing that, I actually could. It turned out, however, that I really can't remember lines. Not good. So now I mainly work as an 'extra', or anything without much dialogue.
I thought it was just me that thought this. It seems not.
But keep going guys! Don't give up the …ermm… day job.
This feels like a very transitional and transformative time for ALL the arts, you're right. Tech + late capitalism has come crashing into the creative process with wholly different goals, and a different mindset. I'm not sure there's much else we can do except keep on keeping on... meanwhile keeping an eye open for ways this may benefit rather than destroy us.
Oh, yes. American Gods fell at the third hurdle, unfortunately, but I guess you had a hand in Good Omens, S02 out any minute now. [I did a brief stint on S01 but never got anywhere near S02]. I was a Pratchett & Gaiman fan from before they first hooked up to do the book.
One day, I sincerely hope someone has a proper go at Spares. I heard Spielberg/Dreamworks got their paws on it at one point, but then decided to hide it away in a back room somewhere.
I'd love to know who you personally would like for Randall. Hard to do that kind of character without hitting the cliché zone.
Tom Hardy would get my vote. The same team who did Silo should do Spares as I think they would be able to capture the floating mall perfectly.
I was recently on a webinar with a TV producer who was talking about how the limiting factor for the British TV/film industry is a lack of crew. I live not too far from the new Shinfield Studios complex, but as he said, there's no point having these shiny new studios if there's no one crew them.
True.
As if they'd read your comment, the new Sunset Studios near me has just been put on hold. Shame, it would be only 15 mins from home, whereas Shinfield & Winnersh are a bit borderline for me as a commute - https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2023/07/05/hollywood-film-studio-pauses-600m-hertfordshire-job/
Oddly, though, Bectu have been bemoaning lack of crew jobs over the past year or so, but mostly in unscripted shows.
Ugh, that's a pain... hope it starts up again once the strike is resolved...
OMG Silo is absolutely the very best thing on TV this year, highly recommend it to everyone. The moody atmosphere, the ever-present danger, the excellent actors and acting... the ending was a complete cliff hanger too, I had to run it back at least twice to make sure my eyes were not deceiving me! Well done.
Ah, thanks for the further recommend... I need something new to watch.
Thanks for such an enjoyable, informative read. Eye opening.
Nobody Knows Anything (courtesy WG):
"then you’ll realize you have no clue what you’re doing, what happens next, or why you thought it was a good idea in the first place."
"Hollywood is a place governed by fear, and when these folk are scared they tend to look for sure things."
"no one seems to know what the next thing is."
A Good Plot:
"a bunch of tech bros and bankers making drastic mistakes and misunderstanding the entertainment business is a sideshow because the fact is that people will always pay money to be told good stories."
Fascinating Info For Outsiders Looking In (like me):
"Advances are way down, to the point where it’s not a profession where you can really hope to make a living unless you’re up in the rarified realms of the super-bestsellers, or else were a celebrity beforehand, and you and the publisher are using this to increase your mutual worth."
all the best
Brian
Thank you Brian — and thank you for reading! And yes, I do think/hope that Good Plot point gives hope for the future...
Thanks Michael
what I meant was that...
"a bunch of tech bros and bankers making drastic mistakes and misunderstanding the entertainment business is a sideshow because the fact is that people will always pay money to be told good stories."
would make a good storyline
Brian
I love that you're doing this.
Thank you Mollie — I'd love to do a conversation with you at some point!
Oh wow! I wasn't fishing for that, but would adore it!
Oh, I know you weren't — I'd actually already thought of asking! I'm slogging my way through post-London jetlag right now... will drop you a line when my brain's back in!
This was great, the only disappointment is that it's not part 1 of (large number) of this particular conversation.
Thank you — and who knows: I may see if Julian's up for a part 2...
He is
No rush. And thanks - that means a lot. xo
x
As someone trying to do a career pivot (back) into writing, I can't think of a worse time to be even considering it. I had a brief stint as a music journalist back during the Britpop era, which was a lot of fun but paid next to nothing, and I rather internalised that as proof that all the people who'd told me that you couldn't earn a living as a writer were right.
Skip forward 25 years, and I'm trying to do all the creative writing now that I didn't do back then, but the prospects for earning a decent living as a writer seem even bleaker. I'm proud of the things that I've done in the intervening years, but I seem to have gravitated toward somewhat underpaid professions. Somehow, I need to find a way to support my writing habit.
All that said, there's a huge difference between now and then: In the late 90s, I was on my own. I didn't know anyone who wrote, didn't really know how to get work as a writer, didn't have any confidence in my writing, had no mentors and no role models. Now, I only have to log in to Subtack and there's the joy of two fabulous people having a fascinating conversation that speaks directly to me. And I get, perhaps, to chat with you both in the comments. It's magnificent.
And that's important. It's just so much easier to find both inspiration and support now than it ever was when I first tried to write for a living. That leaves me feeling a lot more hopeful for the future of the creative industries than the multi-format shitshow that's unfurling around us right now might otherwise indicate.
That sense of community — when you need it — can be so important. As I said in the chat, I was lucky that I was entering a genre, at a certain age (no kids, few responsibilities) and could write as much as I wanted. That's much harder now. And yes, I do have hopes that Substack might be somewhere to look for it... of course there's a lot of people who are just trying to "grow their brands" but others who are up for hanging out and entering a place of mutual encouragement...
Substack really reminds me of the very early days of blogging. I started my blog in 2001 and rapidly found a whole group of people, all way more notable than me, who were willing to chat with anyone who had something interesting to say. (That is, in fact, how I met Neil and got him to become the patron of the Open Rights Group.) The internet hasn't felt that open and welcoming for a long time, but I do get the sense that for those who want it, Substack can be that kind of place.
Great chat guys, lots of this really strikes home, too. I've been making a living at this for 18 years now, and have really diversified over the past few years, partly as opportunities arose, partly through necessity, mostly because of what Julian said ... I just love telling stories, and being able to tell them through different media is refreshing and fun. And it's got to be fun, hasn't it? Even when it's fucking soul-destroying it's fun. It is. IT IS!
Mike's comment about publishing promo struck a hard chord too, blog tours etc etc, and 90% virtual promotion (which as we all know is mostly farting into a hurricane and hoping someone gets a whiff). Er, not that I think our books are like farts. Bad analogy. I'm a writer, you know.
Also that comment about how the finished product never quite living up to what you'd expect brings to mind the great Arthur Machen quote, 'I dream in fire, but work in clay'.
Good luck with the novel, Jules! And Mike ... about time you wrote a new one. Get on it.
Hey Tim! I'd somehow never heard that Machen quote. Love it. And you're right... even when it's not fun, it's a lot more fun than we'd have any other way.
Thanks for the insights! Very valuable as an outsider. I like that both of you felt as outsiders early on. Many do in their careers and it's a superpower of sorts to not take things for granted. Keep at i and your heads up so you'll see the fork in the road when it's coming. Stories are a huge [part of who we are.
Very true! And I love that metaphor about keeping your head up and looking for upcoming forks... very good way of visualizing it!
How interesting and informative. Please, no podcasts. I can’t stand people yakking all day. Write it all down and I’ll read it with peace and quiet around me. 😉
I'm the same ;-) Drives me nuts that most of the time if you want to find out how to use some piece of tech you have to watch a perky little video, rather than just speed-reading through a document in a tenth of the time...
YES! 😂
Drives me crazy too. At least the better YouTubers are starting to add chapters now.
I think a podcast with you two would be great!
:-) Sadly the eight-hour time difference between our locations might make it tricky, but who knows!
Two dudes moaning, interspersed with the sound of vape hits.
Nice bookshelf
Yeah, I'm jealous of his shelving.
Really enjoyed this. Tell me, once you have been published professionally, when you get to the end of a contract, is there never the tempation to go out on your own and create your own publishing company, just to release and promote your own books, then keep most of the profits?
I'm thinking particularly of the StoryGrid / Black Irish Publishing set up between Steven Pressfield and Shawn Coyne. They have an in-house marketing guy Tim, who is also one of their authors and started out freelance, and I've seen some of Michael's AI pictures, they would make great covers. Amazon GDP provides the global distribution. With digital marketing techniques nowadays, you can even split test covers and titles, and serialise books to build an audience while writing. Didn't you do that Michael with one of yours? Yes, I think you did.
Of course, if you have well-paid day jobs I can see that the appeal of this would fade, but it sounds like the day jobs are proving problematic too so it may be something to think about for later.
I personally have never been tempted, because I lack the skills in editing, marketing and publicity, and also the time to make the whole thing work...